Redefining Conversion in the Multi-Touch Era | Talia Wolf & Ricardo Tayar
Welcome back to The Search Session! I’m your host, Gianluca Fiorelli, and in today’s episode, we’re diving deep into the evolving world of conversion rate optimization.
Joining me are two incredible minds from the world of digital experience and performance: Talia Wolf, CEO of GetUplift, renowned for her customer-centric approach to optimization and Ricardo Tayar, CEO of Flat101, CEO of Flat101, bringing his expertise in leveraging data and creativity for impactful results.
Together, we explore how AI is reshaping the way we work, what it really takes to drive meaningful experimentation and performance, and why the obsession with tools might be holding us back more than helping us. We also dig into breaking silos between SEO and CRO, redefining what conversion even means in today’s multi-touch, emotion-driven digital landscape.
So grab your headphones, and let’s get into it.
Video Chapters
Transcript
Gianluca Fiorelli: Hi everybody, and welcome back to The Search Session!
In this episode, we’re diving into conversion rate optimization—or maybe just “conversion optimization,” as we’ll get into later. I’m joined by two amazing guests who are true experts in the field.
Meet Our Guests: Talia Wolf & Ricardo Tayar
First, we have Talia Wolf, CEO of GetUplift, and Ricardo Tayar, CEO of Flat101.
Hi Talia, hi Ricardo—how are you both doing?
Talia Wolf: Good! How are you?
Gianluca Fiorelli: I’m doing well, thanks! Summer is finally arriving—not just in the U.S., but for all of us—so we’ll get to enjoy the longer days.
And honestly, if this were a real face-to-face conversation, I’d be inviting you both out for a beer after this. But hey, let’s at least promise to make that happen sometime in the future.
Gianluca Fiorelli: So! Today we’re going to talk about conversion rate optimization. Although, Talia, before we started recording, you told me you don’t even call it that. What do you call it again?
Talia Wolf: Conversion optimization. I just drop the “rate.”
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yeah, makes sense—it’s already long enough! So let’s optimize it—even the terminology—and keep it short!
In past episodes of The Search Session, a recurring theme has been that we’re living through a time of real transformation. A kind of “crisis” in the original, etymological sense—a turning point, a passage from the old to the new in marketing.
This shift is driven largely by the rise of AI, but not only that. We’re also seeing big changes in how people—especially younger generations—search for information online and interact with brands. It’s a very different behavior compared to Gen X, millennials, and definitely boomers.
AI in Our Daily Work: Personal Reflections
Gianluca Fiorelli: So, I’d like to start with this broader topic—how is AI affecting your work?
Not necessarily what brands are asking you or what you’re seeing in the industry, but on a more personal level: how is AI changing your day-to-day?
That’s what I find most interesting right now. For example, how are you using AI for conversion analysis, behavioral analysis, and all the data-heavy work your profession relies on?
It seems like AI could be a really useful ally for you—but maybe I’m wrong?
Talia Wolf: Um, well, I’ll start.
One of the things we really focus on at GetUplift is the idea of garbage in, garbage out. So if you’re going to feed something like ChatGPT rubbish data, that’s exactly what you’re going to get back.
Yes, we do use AI to streamline analysis and to go deeper in certain areas of research. But if we really want to get meaningful information—whether it’s insights, anecdotes, or suggestions—we have to make sure we’re feeding it the most important and relevant information.
So, it’s not enough for us to just input things like age, geographic location, or gender of our ICP. We really try to get into the nitty-gritty: their motivations, their intent, their pain points, their hesitations, their concerns.
When we think about how we use AI, a big part of it is asking: how much deep, critical, meaningful information can we feed it? Because when we do that, and then use AI to identify insights, spot patterns, or even brainstorm, we get results that are relevant—not just surface-level, tactical stuff.
Does that make sense?
Gianluca Fiorelli: No, it makes total sense.
And you, Ricardo—what are you saying?
Ricardo Tayar: Yeah, I think first of all, we’re all still learning how to use AI in our day-to-day work.
The first challenge for me is just having a solid base of knowledge about AI. It’s not easy—especially if you’re not already used to working with it on a daily basis.
And of course, I completely agree with what Talia said. It really depends on the kind of information you give the AI and what your expectations are.
But for me, this is still a time of experimentation. We’re trying different things to see which ones are actually useful in our daily work—and not just for clients, but also to improve our own productivity.
It’s really a time to learn.
I started with DALL·E, then Midjourney, then Grok, and then Bard—now called Gemini—from Google.
And honestly, sometimes I feel overwhelmed. I don’t know if this happens to you too, but I often feel like there’s just so much to learn and so little time.
So for me, it’s about choosing the right tools and figuring out which ones actually help. It’s not easy.
I decided a while ago to just focus on two or three areas, because if you try to understand everything about AI, it’s just impossible for one person.
So right now, I’m focusing on GPTs—how to train them, how to use them as part of the decision-making process—and on data analysis. And then design as well.
Those are the three areas I’m trying to improve in my daily work. But yeah… sometimes, it really does feel overwhelming.
Talia Wolf: I love that—and I’d also add that one of the most important things right now is just using it.
What we’ve been doing with our team is encouraging everyone to use whatever AI tool feels right for them. But, like you said, it’s not just about picking a tool—it’s about figuring out how to integrate it into the daily tasks you’re already doing. Because simply trying to bolt on an AI tool for the sake of it doesn’t really work.
What I find really irritating, honestly, is the sheer amount of content out there right now—posts and articles and people talking about all these amazing things they’re doing with AI. There’s this constant stream of “you’ve got to try this tool, and that tool,” and there are hundreds of them. It gets overwhelming.
But at the end of the day, I think a good place to start—just like you said—is by integrating AI into what you’re already doing. Before you start changing all your processes and tools, just ask: how can I use it to support what I’m already doing?
Whether that’s brainstorming, generating new ideas, streamlining workflows, or improving analysis—those are natural entry points.
So right now, I’m really just encouraging my team to try things out as much as possible. And also, to have more conversations—to talk to other people, to see how they’re using AI. That helps us cut through the noise a bit.
Because there’s the public hype around AI… and then there’s the actual, practical ways people are applying it.
Ricardo Tayar: Yeah, that’s true.
I actually have a very simple framework that I try to use with the team at Flat101. The first question you have to ask yourself is: What is the problem I have?
Once you know what the problem is, the next step is: How can I solve this problem?
And once you know the kind of solution you need, then you can ask: What tool will give me the best solution?
At that point, I always recommend choosing just three tools. No more than three.
Then, test those three tools—not for a long time, but maybe over the course of two or three projects. That gives you a good sense of which one is actually useful for your daily work.
That’s what I do. Because if I go a different route—well, like you said, there’s just too much noise out there. Too much public hype. Too many people talking about the “magic” of AI.
But honestly? I need tools that help me with my real day-to-day work. I’m not looking for a silver bullet.
I’m looking for tools that are actually useful.
So that’s my simple framework:
What’s your problem?
What solution do you need?
Test tools designed to solve that specific problem—
And then choose just one. Or none, if none of the three really work.
Talia Wolf: Agreed.
Gianluca Fiorelli: I agree.
In my work as a consultant, I do almost the same. I mean, I kind of feel an obligation to at least read everything that’s related to AI—especially in the field of search—because I see it coming up every day, pushed by Google and all the other platforms.
But then I try to step back and ask myself: How can AI actually help me?
As a consultant, what I really need is for AI to make my life easier. To streamline repetitive tasks. And I’m not talking about things like writing title tags or meta descriptions.
It’s more like, okay, I used to spend way too much time working on schema markup. But now, with the help of AI, a well-crafted prompt, and the ability to upload documentation or other context, something that used to take me five hours now takes just one.
That’s what I really need from AI.
And when it comes to brainstorming, this is something I’ve talked about in past episodes: I love using AI for thought work—for reasoning things through, for brainstorming with myself.
Ricardo Tayar: Okay.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Especially when I know what I want to say or do, but I just don’t know how to express it yet or how to organize it into a logical sequence.
That’s when I kind of follow my own Socratic method—I use AI as a sort of “thinking partner” to help me work through my ideas. So that, for me, is a great use of AI.
And then, of course, I have fun with it too—like Ricardo knows—with all the tools for image generation. But that’s more just for fun than anything else.
Are Clients Really Asking About AI for CRO?
Gianluca Fiorelli: Anyway, I was wondering about you—are your clients now asking questions like:
How can we use AI to improve conversion optimization?
How can we personalize the user experience more effectively?
Are those conversations starting to happen more often?
Talia Wolf: Um, I’d say I’m not hearing that question as much as I hear my fellow SEOs do.
When I talk to friends who work in SEO, that seems to be the number one question their clients ask.
Where I’m seeing AI come up more is when clients are making decisions about tools and software—whether it's for A/B testing, heat mapping, surveys, or any kind of platform they're thinking about buying or adopting. That’s when the AI question comes up: Does this tool use AI? How can it help us?
But at least on my side, I’m not getting a lot of direct questions about how we leverage AI specifically to increase conversions.
That said, one thing we’ve started doing is including a clause in our contracts where we ask clients: Do you agree to us using the analysis and research we conduct in an AI system?
Of course, we always strip out any private or identifying information—but we want to be clear about using AI for processing and analyzing the data.
Because like you said, it really does help cut analysis time in half, and it allows us to generate a wide range of reports much more efficiently.
So that’s what I’m seeing.
I don’t know—Ricardo, are you getting more requests on that front?
Ricardo Tayar: Honestly, I think clients don’t really care about how much AI we use in our work. What they do care about is the results—the profit they can get from what we deliver.
So, to me, this is more of an internal question for our companies, not something that clients are especially focused on.
Most of the time, clients ask me, “Hey, which tools should we be looking at?”
And I think that’s a problem—because everyone’s thinking only in terms of tools.
They’re looking for the next big thing. “Just give me the tool,” right? But this isn’t just a tool question.
Like we were saying earlier, yes—you should explore tools. You should test them. You should figure out which ones actually work for you. But AI in CRO? From my experience over the years, clients don’t care about how much AI we’re using behind the scenes.
It’s something we need to use to enhance our processes. And yes, there’s a bit of consultation involved too—helping clients choose the right development or tech stack if they want to get into AI themselves.
But no, I don’t feel that clients are actively looking for AI in CRO.
They are looking for tools they can use internally—to improve their own processes—and that’s where their questions tend to go.
And, of course, there’s a lot of hype right now around everything AI-related. Everyone’s talking about the Studio Ghibli characters you can generate with GPT-4o, and all these flashy, attention-grabbing things.
But to be honest—that’s just noise.
That’s not something we can apply in a real CRO process. It’s eye-catching, sure—it gets people talking—but in CRO, we’re talking about business. We’re talking about profit.
How can we increase performance? How can we make things work better?
So, in that context, the amount of AI we use in our projects doesn’t really matter to clients. They just want to see that the work we’re doing delivers results.
Which is why I think AI is more of an internal topic than an external one.
The Illusion of the Perfect Tool
Talia Wolf: Yeah, I definitely want to add something here because one of the things I find really problematic is the obsession with tools.
And it’s not just about AI—it’s been like this for years. This obsession puts people on a kind of hamster wheel.
If we take the general conversion optimization process, simplified:
You find a leak in the funnel, you make a change, you A/B test it, and you hope for a result.
Now, tools like GA4 make it relatively easy to find where the leak is. And if you have the right platform and team, it’s also relatively easy to run an A/B test.
But the real challenge—the biggest problem—is knowing what to test.
What change should I make that will actually improve conversion?
And because people don’t have a solid process or a strategic approach, they usually do one of a few things:
They rely on so-called “best practices”—stuff they read on LinkedIn or articles they Googled that promise a 300% uplift.
Or they copy what competitors are doing, assuming the competitor must have it figured out.
But when everyone’s doing that, you end up with websites that all look and sound the same—and you still don’t get the results you want.
So what do people do?
They look for more tools.
It’s not that people are lazy, but there’s this sense that if I just get the right tool, everything will be fixed. So they spend tons of time, money, and resources onboarding these complicated tools.
And in the end, you still need strategy.
People start leaning on tools like a crutch when really, tools should just be tools. As you said earlier, Ricardo: Start with a problem.
Maybe the issue is that your customers come to your site and can’t immediately tell if your product is right for them—or they don’t see that it was built for their kind of work.
That’s the problem you need to solve. Then, maybe a tool can help.
But what people are doing instead is buying tools first. They chase the next big thing, try to implement everything, onboard the whole team over six months… and then?
They sit down and say, “Okay, so what should we test?”
And no one knows. So they go back to Google, looking up best practices again—because there was never a strategy in the first place.
It drives me crazy.
Everyone’s talking about how amazing DALL·E or Midjourney or whatever the latest thing is, and it just fuels the cycle. People stay on that hamster wheel, chasing tools, but never stopping to ask:
What is the actual problem I’m trying to solve?
So yeah—as you can probably tell—I’m super passionate about this. The whole “tool” obsession drives me nuts.
Gianluca Fiorelli: I think this is a common issue for everyone. It’s the same in SEO: the first question people ask is, “What tool can we use to optimize our website?”
But really, the first question should be: Why do you need to optimize your website? What’s wrong?
Tools are just tools. They can help—but only if you know what problem you're solving. And even then, they don’t always provide the right solution. Sometimes they just highlight that something is off, without telling you what or why.
Breaking the Silo Mentality
Gianluca Fiorelli: Now, connecting this to my work in SEO and yours in CRO—I think we have a lot of common ground.
When I talk about strategy in SEO, I often refer to the concept of the messy middle. People receive input from different sources—it might be online or offline. Maybe they're watching TV, for example—and then they start searching.
That kicks off a whole cycle: search, research, consideration... They move up and down the funnel, spiraling between different sources of information until eventually, they (hopefully!) land on a website.
I use this framework to explain things like why Google wants people to stay on Google—or why you’ll see user journeys that start on TikTok, then move to ChatGPT, then to a search engine, back to ChatGPT, then Reddit, and finally to some thread where they click a link.
It all shows how SEO has to support visibility across all these touchpoints. But the goal is the same: to bring people to your website.
And that’s where CRO, UX, and even technical SEO all need to come together. They should be working in sync to improve performance and guide the user from all those external touchpoints to a meaningful action—whether that’s a lead, a conversion, or a sale.
That’s the shared purpose.
I was going to say “the glorious purpose”—like Loki! [laughs]
But yes, the ultimate goal is simple: to help our clients earn more—more money, more leads, more growth.
That’s the field we share, right?
Ricardo Tayar: It’s a complex question, I think. But I believe—
Gianluca Fiorelli: No, I mean more like—how can technical aspects of a site, like speed—not just speed, but also UX, usability, and conversion rate optimization—all work together?
Isn’t that the right framework to stop thinking in silos?
Ricardo Tayar: The first thing we need to do is let go of this idea of conversion rate optimization. Or at least stop talking about it in that narrow way—just like Talia said earlier.
For the past three or four years, I’ve been telling people: please stop focusing only on conversion rates.
We don’t call it that anymore. What we do is called business experience optimization. That’s what I do.
And that name matters because it opens the door to every part of the user journey and every touchpoint. Business experience optimization is a broad approach that can include many areas of expertise.
A/B testing? Heatmaps? All those great tools? They're just that: tools.
But the real key to optimization comes down to just three things. Only three.
First: Understanding.
You can’t fix something you don’t understand. And by “understanding,” I don’t mean guessing. I mean really understanding your users—their motivations, the problems they’re facing, the friction in their experience.
Second: Creativity.
The things that actually move the needle—the ideas that make a real impact—come from creativity. That’s a saying we have in Spain: "move the needle."
But creativity requires risk. You have to take risks, because you don’t know for sure if something creative is going to work. And of course, large companies hate risk. They avoid it as much as they can.
Third: Innovation.
And this is where AI plays a role. This is where we can innovate—whether it’s how we handle data, how we build synthetic users, how we generate and test content.
To me, all of this is connected.
You can’t create a good business experience—or a good digital business experience—without SEO working right alongside you.
Does that make sense to you?
I ask because I truly believe this is an ecosystem.
And one of the biggest problems we still have is that so many projects are executed in silos.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yeah, that’s exactly what—
Ricardo Tayar: —that’s what I hear! “I’ve done my SEO part, I’ve done my SEO tasks, and they’re running fine, so don’t talk to me about conversion rate—I’ve done my job.”
But no, your work is also connected to—
Talia Wolf: Yeah.
Ricardo Tayar: —it’s all connected.
Talia Wolf: I agree.
And I’d add—we actually call it customer-first optimization.
The reason is simple: you’re optimizing the experience for your customers. And if you help your customers achieve their goals, you end up achieving your own.
One thing I’ve been talking about more lately is the connection between SEO and CRO.
And honestly, it’s something I only really started emphasizing this year.
It’s funny—about six or seven years ago, I spoke at SearchLove in London. I got up on stage and gave a whole talk about conversion optimization and why it matters.
The feedback I got?
“This isn’t relevant to SEO.”
So yeah, as you said, Ricardo, people really like to stay in their own silos.
But here’s the truth: almost every single search online is infused with emotion.
We’re not just typing in “account management software.” We’re searching with frustration, with a need, with curiosity—there’s always some emotion behind it.
So when someone arrives at your website, you need to connect their search term—the intent that brought them there—with what they see and experience on the page.
If SEOs aren’t being evaluated—or at least considering—conversion outcomes, then we’ve got a problem.
Because it should all be part of one system.
SEO should feed CRO.
And CRO should feed SEO.
But the silos—between marketing, sales, product—those are what create disjointed, inconsistent experiences.
And that’s exactly what breaks the user journey.
You're absolutely right: if everything’s connected, that’s when you get a cohesive, high-converting experience.
That’s when you start seeing real results.
But when things are disconnected? That’s exactly how it will feel to your users.
Everything has to be connected.
Gianluca Fiorelli: I totally agree.
And just as you’re moving away from calling it CRO, I’ve been stepping back from calling it SEO in the traditional sense.
For me, it’s no longer just Search Engine Optimization. Because what search engine are we even talking about anymore? There are many—Google, yes, but also TikTok, YouTube, Instagram, even ChatGPT now.
That’s why I prefer to think of it as Search Experience Optimization.
It’s about optimizing to be visible—to show up when people are looking for something. Visibility becomes the core metric.
When someone is searching—whether it’s for a solution, a service, a product, or even just “What should I do tonight with my wife or boyfriend?”—that’s still a search. It’s emotional. It’s intentional.
So yes, the experience of search must be consistent—and it should guide people naturally to your client’s website.
But here’s the thing: brands often appear outside of their own website first. People see them in search environments—on the SERP, in snippets, on review sites, in videos.
And so, as you were saying, Talia, we need to apply the same user experience principles—even emotional cues and sentiment awareness—to how brands appear in search environments.
Because the search experience doesn’t start on the website. It starts before that.
It starts on the SERP.
These little snippets of your website—the ones that are presented by Google, Bing, ChatGPT, and others—they’re becoming increasingly important.
You need to make that snippable content—the content used by these environments—as memorable as possible.
Because at the end of the day, it’s about visibility.
And if you're not able to stand out—if your snippet looks just like every other search result or mention—then people won’t remember you.
And if they don’t remember you, they won’t come back. They won’t make those branded searches.
And branded search, by the way, is something I’m really seeing grow right now.
So all of this just reinforces how important it is to break down the silos.
It’s not just about SEO or CRO—it’s about the full experience, across every channel.
Creative Risks That Paid Off
Gianluca Fiorelli: And Ricardo, I think you agree—especially since you were talking earlier about the importance of creativity.
Just out of curiosity: what’s the most crazy or creative thing you’ve tested recently?
Ricardo Tayar: What we tested just a few weeks ago was a complete redesign of all our messaging and visuals—everything we were saying to people about the product we’re trying to sell.
The original approach was very corporate. The messaging focused mostly on technical details—features, specs, that kind of thing.
And we completely rewrote it.
It was risky. We changed the tone of voice, the style of the visuals, even the way we presented the pricing.
We redesigned absolutely everything:
All the funnels, all the ads, all the landing pages—even the snippets that show up in search engine results.
And it worked incredibly well.
We multiplied sales by six, while using 15% less ad spend.
But here’s the thing about creativity—it’s tough for companies to accept the risk that comes with doing something bold or unconventional.
Everyone’s afraid of breaking what’s already working.
So you have to find the right balance—between creativity and “please don’t break my business.”
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yeah, yeah—because otherwise you end up doing something like Jaguar…
Ricardo Tayar: Yeah, that’s what we do.
We’ve tested other crazy ideas in our own projects too—because we run and manage a few e-commerce businesses ourselves.
So with those, we can experiment freely and try absolutely wild things.
But this particular case we just talked about—it was a client project, and it was very successful.
And I’m really grateful, because that company allowed us to take creative risks that many companies just wouldn’t.
Quick-Fire Round: Sounds, Foods, and Favorite Books
Gianluca Fiorelli: Right. Okay, guys—I'd love to keep going, but I know Talia has a tight schedule, so we’ve only got a few minutes left.
And I definitely don’t want to skip the quick-fire questions I ask all my guests.
These are super short—just answer whatever comes to mind first, no overthinking.
Let’s see what comes out! Okay, let’s do this.
We’ll start with you, Talia.
Talia, what is the sound you love the most?
Talia Wolf: The sound that I like the most?
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yes.
Talia Wolf: Um… the sea.
Gianluca Fiorelli: The sound of waves?
Talia Wolf: Yeah. I go to the sea quite a lot, to the beach—and I just love listening to the sound of the sea, the waves.
Gianluca Fiorelli: And you, Ricardo?
Ricardo Tayar: Uff… I’m torn. I also really love the sound of the sea—but if I had to choose, I’d balance it between two things.
First, the laughter of my family—my children, my wife. That sound comes straight from the heart.
And second… a really good guitar riff.
So yeah, somewhere between those two.
Gianluca Fiorelli: And on the flip side, what turns you off, Talia?
Talia Wolf: Hmm… what turns me off?
Ricardo Tayar: [laughs]
Talia Wolf: Uh oh… okay, to be honest? At this point—working on the weekend.
That’s it. That’s my answer.
Working weekends totally turns me off. I just don’t do that anymore. It’s not a thing for me anymore.
Ricardo Tayar: I’ll add one more—for me, it’s excuses. That really turns me off.
Talia Wolf: Yes, totally.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Especially cheap excuses.
Talia Wolf: Or when someone shows up with a problem and has zero solutions—just complains and expects you to fix it all. That drives me nuts.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Exactly. Just be honest. I can deal with anything if you’re honest—but if you’re not...
Ricardo Tayar: Yeah… easy to say, but hard to do.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Alright—so, what’s your favorite food?
Talia Wolf: Um… well, I’m vegan, so...
Gianluca Fiorelli: [laughs] So, no jamón...
Talia Wolf: No jamón! Though I do remember it being nice.
But yeah, my favorite food is probably a good pasta... or a really well-made stir-fry with tofu.
Ricardo Tayar: Well, I’m not vegan—so I’ll say yes to jamón, absolutely! But what I really love is a good tomahawk steak.
Talia Wolf: Oh, nice!
Gianluca Fiorelli: Not bad, not bad. Okay, last question before we wrap things up:
What’s the last book you read—and really loved?
Talia Wolf: Do you mean a business book or just any kind of book?
Gianluca Fiorelli: Any kind! Doesn’t have to be business-related.
Talia Wolf: Right now, I’m rereading What If? by Randall Munroe.
It’s not really a book you read straight through—it’s more one you can just open up and enjoy.
It’s full of these random, quirky questions, like:
What if the Earth suddenly stopped spinning?
What if it rain would stop suddenly?
Or, what if all the glass in the world shattered at the same time?
Super fun and thought-provoking.
Gianluca Fiorelli: That kind of book says a lot—it’s a signal of curiosity, of how you like to think.
Ricardo Tayar: Yeah, at first I thought you were talking about the What If...? Marvel series!
Talia Wolf: Yes! I love that series. And right now, Daredevil is my favorite show.
And honestly, What If...?—seasons one, two, and three—were incredible.
Wait, are we talking about shows now? Because if so… I can totally geek out!
Ricardo Tayar: Yeah, or the comic books—either way.
But back to the book question—
The last book I really enjoyed was Confess, the autobiography of Rob Halford, the lead singer of Judas Priest.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Cool, cool.
Well, my book is probably a bit boring for most people—unless you’re into history. But I loved it. It’s called 1177 B.C.: The Year Civilization Collapsed.
It’s about the end of the Bronze Age—a kind of archaeological investigative journey, like a Sherlock Holmes mystery, but from 3,000 years ago.
The author pieces together what little evidence we have—relics, documents, trade records—to explain how the entire eastern Mediterranean, which was basically a globalized civilization at the time, suddenly collapsed.
In just 100 years, everything crashed. And then, for 500 years, the region fell into a kind of dark age… until the Greeks and Romans came and everything started again—like the Wheel of Time, when the wheel turns and resets everything.
Anyway—thank you. Seriously, thank you so much, Talia and Ricardo.
This was a beautiful conversation. I really learned a lot from both of you.
And I mean that—not just because I’m an SEO, but because I’m a curious SEO.
I'm always wondering—what if SEO could evolve, could partner more closely with CRO? What could CRO do for SEO, and vice versa?
It’s something that has always fascinated me, and I’m sure our listeners and viewers will take a lot away from this episode, too.
To everyone tuning in—don’t forget to subscribe, click the bell, and share!
You can listen to The Search Session on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and watch it on YouTube.
And if you want the clean, blog-style version of this episode, check it out on the Advanced Web Ranking blog.
You can’t escape this wonderful conversation—we’ve got you covered everywhere!
Thanks again, Talia and Ricardo.
Ricardo Tayar: Thank you so much.
Talia Wolf: Thanks, bye!
Podcast Host
Gianluca Fiorelli
With almost 20 years of experience in web marketing, Gianluca Fiorelli is a Strategic and International SEO Consultant who helps businesses improve their visibility and performance on organic search. Gianluca collaborated with clients from various industries and regions, such as Glassdoor, Idealista, Rastreator.com, Outsystems, Chess.com, SIXT Ride, Vegetables by Bayer, Visit California, Gamepix, James Edition and many others.
A very active member of the SEO community, Gianluca daily shares his insights and best practices on SEO, content, Search marketing strategy and the evolution of Search on social media channels such as X, Bluesky and LinkedIn and through the blog on his website: IloveSEO.net.
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